skeptic ([info]real_skeptic) wrote,

Some notes about the Disengagement


It's been a weird week here in Israel. Prime Minister Sharon's "Disengagement" deadline has finally arrived, on the tail of the Jewish 3 weeks of mourning culminating in the 9th of Ab fast commemorating the destruction of both Temples. The deadline was the next day after that.

Why am I bringing up the religious significance of the timeline? I'm an atheist, but the settlers there, for the most part, are orthodox jews. Also, because of the Jewish fast, there were pragrammes in the History Channel and the Science and Culture channel, about the Roman occupation, about Masada, and stuff like that. This gave a lot of historical context to the whole event.

The settlers have been doing everything possible to prevent the disengagement from going through. Mostly legitimate protest and political maneouvres, but some non-legitimate actions, such as spilling oil and booby-trapping high roads. That was life-endangering.

What bothered me personally was the slogan they chose - "A Jew does not deport a Jew". They don't even realize the bigotry of this slogan. It highlights the real difference in the sets of values between the doves and the hawks in this land (also known as the left and the right, but I think the ornithological references are the more accurate). To me it could be "a human does not deport a human". But their slogan implies that it is perfectly OK for Jews to deport non-Jews, namely Palestinians. That non-Jews can have no claim on land, no equal rights.

Another point that bothered me even more, for some of these people, was the use of Holocaust references to describe PM Sharon and our military and police forces. My LJ friends know I'm rather sensitive about the Holocaust. I have no love lost for PM Sharon. I think that he is a corrupt, brutal person, and that he who was named guilty for the Sabra and Shatila atrocities and pronounced unfit to be Israel's minister of Defense, should not have been nominated for Prime Minister after that. Many of the Settlements are his personal fault. He held the belief that somehow, settling occupied territories will force the issue when the time comes to divide the land between us and the Palestinians. He also claimed that settlements make for better security, though I can't for the life of me see how a civilian settlement helps. I mean, suppose you say that this or that locus in the territories is important to hold so as to prevent terrorists from freely advancing toward the border. Then it makes sense to me that you'd put a garrison of military men to hold that position. If you put a civilian settlement there, you'd only need to expend more resources on defending the settlement as well as preventing the movements of the enemey. Of course I've only been to officer's training course, what do I know.

The point of all this was to say that I like Sharon not at all, but the idea of comparing him to Hitler or our military to the SS gives me real nausea. There was this over-emotional settler girl who was given a column in one of the leading web-news sites. She said something like "You, the soldiers, you'll never be able to go to the Yad Vashem museum again (that's the Israeli Holocaust museum) because the eyes of the children looking out from the pictures will be our eyes". Never mind the pathos, but excuse me? All the soldiers are doing to you is move you from your home to some other place in your own land. They do not beat you up. They do not strip you. They do not separate the man from the women and children. They do not send the men to forced labor. They do not send anybody to their death. There is no genocide nor even any bodily harm. How on Earth can you make that insane comparison? How is it that you have learned so much about the Holocaust but have internalized none of it?

And there was this other family that was evacuated the day before yesterday. They decided to go out in the style of a very famous holocaust picture. He gave his children actual "Jude" patches and they came out of the house with their hands up and crying. Hands up? The soldiers there were completely without weapons. Not even wooden trencheons. It was done entirely for the sake of propaganda, and abominably so. He should be ashamed of himself.

The disengagement process highlighted the power of religion for extremity. People move from sane to stupid, and from stupid to blind, and from blind to fanatic, when they are under the influence of the Opium For The Masses. Some of the settlers were non-religious. Simple people who were lured into the settlements by all the benefits the Israeli governments gave them since 1967 (both left and right wing governments at that). These were packed and gone, most of them before the operation even started, and some of them helped by soldiers on the first two days of the operation, before the forceful evacuation started. When that started, the non-religious settlers were long gone into their temporary abodes, having properly registered themselves with the evacuation authorities. It was not nice. They had to leave their homes, their schools, their gardens - but they did so, and they will continue their life.

The religious believed, and this belief was strengthened by their rabbies, that God will prevent the "atrocity" from happening. They were sure that somehow, something will happen to stop it. They were also assured that they will succeed in subverting the military when they come to take them. That the military will join forces with them, and change the course of history. Nothing like that happened. In the whole campaign I've heard of only one soldier who was subverted, and he was taken away by his peers and will face discipline. But the brainwash on the religious settlers' side was so deep, that a 9 years old kid said to the soldier who came to evacuate his family "But the majority of the soldiers defy their orders!" and when the soldier tried to explain that this was not really true, the kid insisted "At least half of them do!".

The thing about the rabbies telling the settlers that "everything will be alright" reminded me of the Holocaust, too. There were rabbies there who said that god will not allow anything to happen to his children, and that they should stay put. Some of them were even bad enough to say so, and then take themselves away and flee... But that's beside the point. The think is that the religious structure, in which the rabbi is your leader and you listen to him in everything, can lead you to real trouble. Now these families were taken away from their homes, leaving a lot of their possessions behind, which means not only losing a lot of money on furniture and stuff, but also saying goodbye to memories, pictures, and so on. This particular evil was spared from the seculars.

Now, back to the issue of Masada and the Romans. Yesterday, two groups of fanatics took refuge in synagogues in the settlements. The one group in Neveh Dekalim, boys in one Synagogue and girls in another. The other group in Kfar Darom, where I think there was a mixed group, but I'm not sure. The local community leaders in Neveh Dekalim managed to come to terms with both the fanatics and the military, and they were evacuated with passive protest and no violence. Merely by sitting down and holding to one another. I can't say that it was respectable, but it was the least of the evils. In Kfar Darom, the community leaders did nothing to cool down the issue, and the result was seen all over the world news yesterday - people spilling oil, water, and acid on policemen, 40 injured, people being evacuated in cages, and eventually, of course, everybody being taken away.

And this reminded me of Masada. I saw a movie about it in the History channel, as I said. And one note there that caught my ear was that the fanatics in Masada had no chance to begin with, because they were enthusiastic amateurs, and the Romans were a professional military force that had a lot of siege experience. And the same thing can be said for the police force that broke in there. It was the special unit that deals with mass events, and they knew their stuff. Despite the difficulties, they completed their task. The fanatics had no chance at all. But to the religious (and actually, in this case, any fanaticism will do, not just religion), the belief that enough enthusiasm will ensure success is really overwhelming. The David And Goliath myth, all those stories and movies about "united we will stand against the whole world" really impress them. It's sad, really.

By the way, most of the fanatics in both synagogues were not local settlers, but mere hormone-crazed juveniles who came from the outside to "get some action". Nominally, to "help the settlers agains the military". In fact they merely harmed their cause by causing many people to really lose patience with the whole thing. I'd say mr. Sharon was not as popular as he is today since before the last elections. If there was an election today he'd probably grab a true majority... [shudder].

In a few days the whole thing will be over. But it's an interesting lesson in history while it is being made. Now all that is left to see is how it will affect local politics, the relationship with the Palestinians and the security of the Israeli people.

One thing that has come to the surface is that Jews are certainly capable of becoming terrorists, of the exact same kind we always blamed Islam for. Just grabbing a weapon and killing innocents. Today a fanatic almost caused a catastrophy when he ignited a gas pipe. The firefighters caught it in time, thank goodness.

The settlers are really amazed that people think differently than they do. They can't grasp why this came upon them, or how their brothers can think that they are anything other than pioneers who are doing great work for the sake of the Jewish people. The problem, as one eminent member of the National Religious community also admitted (the settlers are basically considered part of that community), is segragation. The religious have gone through a long process of separating themselves from the seculars. Of separating themselves from the liberal town-dwellers. I see that phenomenoun all over the world - the Bible Belt, Iran, you name it. They try to keep purity of thought, to keep their children away from being influenced by immoral views and modern temptations. The result is that all the views they here are their own. They strengthen one another in their world view, bring up straw-man arguments in the name of the opposition, but barely ever talk to the real opposition.

It's the old city-liberalism versus country-moralism, you could say. People in the city are exposed to all sorts of behaviours, cultures and views, and that mellows down most extreme views. But when you segregate yourself, you stagnate. You become disconnected from the realities, and then you can't fathom why people could even begin to think differently. You don't realize the possibility of existence of other value systems.

The sad thing about all this is, that the religious community could probably have influenced us and mellowed us in their direction as well, if they didn't segregate themselves. There are things I'd really like to see influence secular society - acting on values first, personal interest second, for example. Putting less stress on external appearance and more on a person's personality and views. Charity and community values. Perhaps some of this would have rubbed on "us" as much as our liberalism and humanism would have rubbed on "them".

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[info]saminz

August 19 2005, 09:24:22 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you.

Now - you don't call yourself a "Jewess", right? But you do identify as an Israeli? What you write here sounds quite accurate - and is just my opinion ;-). Could you get it published as a letter to the editor in one of your newspapers, you think? Thoughts like these are yelled to silence here for being antisemitic, regularly. And loudly.
I am of course completely at a loss for ideas to make these people see any reason. The suffering, violence and desaster these religions have brought to the world are beyond comprehending. If there was a (benevolent) god at all, he should hide away in shame, methinks...
And yes. the comparing of Sharon to Hitler is way out of proportion. Even though his regime *has* crossed the border to fascism, in my opinion. If anyone has some claim on "Untermenschentum" ("barely human beings" as H. used to call Jews and Gipsies) it would be the Palestinians, of course...
It is all extremely painful and sad to watch.

[info]real_skeptic

August 20 2005, 21:00:11 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Thank you.

Well, I do call myself a Jewess - in the proper context. I'm ethnically Jewish, I belong to the Jewish people. It is the Jewish people who sought a state in which to live, as part of the rise of national movements in the end of the 19th century. It was my people who were persecuted by Hitler, not the Jewish religion. People were exterminated if their grandmother was Jewish, not if they were caught worshipping in a synagogue. This in contrast to the Inquisition, for example, which sought to convert the Jews.

As for the problem of anti-Israeli and anti-semitism, it's a delicate problem. I agree with you that sometimes people mix the two. Well, some of it is simply a matter of language. The Hebrew expression for antisemitism is actually "Hatred of Israel", because Israel is actually the name of the people, not just the state...

Some of it, though, is a result of a nagging suspicion, or more than a suspicion, we have that Europeans are biased against our cause because they still view the Jews as pests. Europe has taken a pro-Arabic, anti-Israeli view way before the 1967 war. It seems that the Europeans always support the cause of the poor Palestinians, and never the cause of their victims. Many Europeans think the Palestinian choice of terrorism as their answer to Israeli occupation is justified. This could be simply because they are always for the underdog, but then, what about before 1967? We were the underdog then, and still we were flogged all over the UN, especially by the European countries, and more than by the European leaders, we were bashed by European intellectuals.

So we have a nagging suspicion that these views stem from a basic belief that Palestinians deserve a country, whereas Jews don't. Because Palestinians are, perhaps, those romantic Arab figures, riding on horses and living as one with the desert, whereas the Jews are gold-diggers, bossy people who want to take over the world.

I don't know how much of this is true, but for all of the above reasons, when the Europeans try to carry the flag for the Palestinians, we are much more skeptical towards them than we are towards the Americans.

And with all due respect to the suffering of the Palestinians, I think they, too, are far from being close to the situation of the people who suffered in the Holocaust. Heck, the mere political idea of organized deportation - a long way off from genocide - was outlawed in Israel a long time ago and its proponents denied the right to run for parliament. Not that the idea died - some of those people on the roofs of the synagogues were indeed supporters of that notorious movement (though they have long learned to couch their views in terms that are not exactly against the law).

[info]saminz

August 21 2005, 07:55:22 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Thank you.

Oh - of course. Sorry if that sounded offensive - I indeed forgot the *race* definition. I don't really do races, in my mindframe. But I absolutely see that Jews do, and for a *very* good reason. Will keep that in mind, hopefully. (Just occurred to me: I *do* races in a physical way. As in "semitic women have wonderful complexions and gorgeous eyes"... offensive?)

My personal history of "anti-Israeli" is the following: My mom was a big admirer of jewish culture. I grew up in awareness of the holocaust, and that it was doubly atrocious because it was not only "genocide" but also directed against the most intellectual, peaceful and advanced population of Germany at the time... I was given Saul Bellow to read, for proof :-).
I am still glad that she was spared the shock to see Israel behave as it did to the palestinians - after her death in 1982. My shock came with the massacre at Shatila...

So: I don't think Arabs are romantic figures, either. I had the Jews casted as such, for a long time ;-)! Anyway, my objections are always political, and not racial and religious at all. I know far too little of these anyway... But when I read about the way these people are treated - that wall, the checkpoints and all - I can see that as breeding violence indeed.
That's what I meant by "Untermenschentum". It's a way of collectively punishing a people for their delinquents, thereby creating more of them, a vicious circle. And I am sure it is done with cynical design, too.

I would have to say that I am very against this Government. But I do not at all think that any people that wants one does not deserve a county, mind you. I would just prefer everyone to try and find a way of negotiating in respect and peace about it and leave these bloody deities out of it, if at all possible... Since that is not to be - holy lands and prophecies and whatnot all over - I am just feeling helpless and sad.

By the way: I see palestinians suffering, yes. But I also hear of seriously neglected people in Israel, suffering of the usual neoliberal disaster and the destruction of public services... And that saddens me as well. Just for the record. You may call me pinko commie now ;-).



[info]framstag

August 19 2005, 09:29:44 UTC 6 years ago

I don't like Sharon...

but comparing him with Hitler is big bulls... excrements. I saw the pictures yesterday, and I heard the order, that is, that the army and the police should be as sensitive as possible (I hope I retranslated it good enough).

Plus, Sharon just follows treaties. I hope that this is the first step for more peace in that region. I remember, that (as a little kid) I heard too much about war, terror etc from there, I started disliking news.

[info]slamlander

August 19 2005, 09:52:19 UTC 6 years ago

Well written and well said

For some decades now I have been getting more and more fed up with the poor behavior of people claiming such behavior in the name of [insert favorite religion here]. In my day, the news makers were the IRA (Catholic) and the Black Panthers (Muslim). But it doesn't really matter what the religion is, as it is only an excuse for people to behave badly.

Unlike you, I am not an atheist. However, I have become, over the decades, very anti-religious. There is a huge difference, being against religion is not being against God. In fact, it may be the direct opposite ;) Most religions are more about doctrine than God.

[info]framstag

August 19 2005, 11:20:45 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Well written and well said

The problem is not the religion, but the people who use it as a reason for their politics. Since religious books (Thora, Bible, Koran etc) are not very specific (i.e. a lot of ways to interpret the content), it's easy to do so... and the more simple minded people are easy targets.

uti, non abuti

[info]real_skeptic

August 20 2005, 21:16:39 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Well written and well said

The recurring theme here is, I think, attributing one's set of values to God. For example, there was the people in Masada, who murdered their wives and children and committed suicide (according to Josephus, that is). And there was this guy on Thursday who had an M-16 rifle and threatened that if the army breaks into his home there will be bloodshed.

Now, the Jewish religion is very strict about both these things. Suicide is forbidden, period. Bloodshed doubly so. You see, most of the laws of the religion are waived if there is a question of life. For example, a Jew is supposed not to work and not to light fire (including electricity and engines) on the Sabbath day. However, if there is a life-threatening situation, or something that may have risks to life (such as having a baby), you are not only encouraged to defy the normal rules of Sabbath (e.g. take the injured or labouring person to hospital by car), but you really must do so. It would be a sin not to save a life because of some other rule.

There are three exceptions to the above axiom. They are called the "avoid, even if you are killed" laws. Well, it sounds better in Hebrew... Anyway, the three exceptions do not include defending land... What they do include is worshipping another god, incest, and bloodshed.

With that being the top priority commandment in orthodox Judaism, you'd think that nobody would ever consider killing their wives and sons, or threatening to kill a person who comes to evacuate you. Unless, of course, they were trying to kill you, or to force you to do one of the three unthinkable deeds. You'd think so - but it isn't true. All religions have found excuses for killing not just in self defense, but in other military situations as well. Well, maybe Buddhism hasn't. I'm not sure. And those extremists, they found additional excuses, obviously.

All this is to say that it's not the actual things advocated in the holy books of any particular religion, that cause it to go to extremes. It's not the central dogma, even. It's the fact that people take a set of values, and say that "God said so". The central dogmas are exactly that - the sets of values particular prophets or priests had at the time, which they attributed to god. Don't like prawns? Well, say that they are forbidden by God... And then somebody says that having this piece of land and defending it is the word of God. All of a sudden, from just a set of values, which is relative, and may be wrong, and we're only human after all, etc., it becomes an absolute decree, something to give your life for.

And that's the problem of religion. I have nothing against deists, or any other group that doesn't believe in a personal god. I think a personal god is ridiculous, but I have nothing against those who believe in it, if all it does is listen to their troubles and comfort them. Anybody can talk to their imaginary friends, it's not as if I don't do ridiculous things sometimes. My real issue is with those who attribute lifestyles and values to god. That's dangerous, stupid, and dehumanizing.

[info]slamlander

August 21 2005, 05:53:07 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Well written and well said

I did an email reply here and it somehow went to a top-level posting. Drat!

A few points I make in the book;
1) Real Gods don't need sacrifices.

    John looks at the Djinna, “This looks an awful lot like a human sacrifice setup. Please tell me that we’re going to live through this.” Cinnamon laughs, “No, it’s absolutely not a sacrificial altar. That is something the angels invented as part of their religious control mechanism. Real gods do not demand sacrifices of any kind. The angels did that for humans because humans would not value what they get for free. Mankind is strange that way, no matter how valueless an object is, it takes on great-perceived value when one has to sacrifice in order to get it. Offering up a human sacrifice creates the greatest perceived value. A piece of carved wood or stone can take on great religious significance when drenched in repeated applications of human blood.”

2) Real Gods don't need worshippers

    We have determined, a very long time ago, that real gods do not need or want followers and that worshippers are irrelevant to them. It only makes sense, eh? What does a god need followers and worshipers for? They already have all of the power that they could possibly want and there is nothing in the universe, that they have created, that can challenge them. We’ve deduced that real gods would rather not be known, unless they have something very specific they want done. Even then, they would keep the impact indirect and to a minimum. In other words, the fewer worshippers the better.

And I thank you again about the Jewish Bible history.
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